Hello welcome everybody. We're on. Is this right team in the back? Yeah. Um, welcome everybody in the second to the second installment of Reclaiming the Witch Symposium. This time we are talking about centralizing themes of poison and remedies, and I'm very delighted and proud to have amazing crew tonight together. Barney Michael a queer nonbinary. New York based rapper, musician Visual artist, an meme wizard. In 2018, Burning was also. Talk show host of broadly hotlines an. You release two books. Ann, you're also making the higher self episodes that we all follow an mostly I know you since 2014, 'cause we collaborated on some videos an also hosting some events together around performances, psychedelics and sexuality in New York, which was awesome an we have Bianca Cassidy cross disciplinary artist and poet who around a couple of years ago started online poverty platform on. Instagram as half of the duo of Cocorosie an often uses other worldly power evocations, an magical rituals in her work. I know Bianca for a really long time now an we also collaborated on pictures an on Bianca's magazine girls against God and I'm super happy that you're here. And then there's Edgar Fabian Frios and non binary queer indigenous. Brown multidisciplinary artist. Holists curator, educator, psychotherapist. Working with photography, video, art, sound, sculpture and gifts and put performances and social practices an I know you from your GIFs on Instagram which I love. Like funny. Alien hybrids like honoring the intergalactic ancestry and political here, an hour situations that we have going on. Thank you everybody for being here. I would love for us all. Everybody at home also to arrive in this space and therefore we want to do a little welcoming ritual. This will be guided by Adger, so I'm going to like give the word to Edgar and make your old make all of you yourself comfortable. Add girl yeah thank you so much for having me here. I'm so honored to be apart of this covenant. Wanna blessing and I thought we could start off by honoring the sacred land that were on and I wanted to name that I'm on the unceded territory of the Alony people also known as the Bay Area. And I want to start off by honoring the indigenous people of this land and of the entire planet by lighting this candle. And inviting everyone to join me at the count of three. Been taking a deep breath together. 1. 2. 3. If you could take a moment and gently allow your awareness to move towards your body. If that feels OK, you can either close your eyes or keep them open. And take a moment and acknowledge. The land that you are on. In whatever way that makes sense for you. Began taking another deep breath. Allowing your awareness to. Move downward. Down your body. Just letting yourself. Move down towards the earth beneath us. Just gently. Allowing this energy to. Move all the way down and make contact with the earth. And at this moment, if there's anything that you would like to let go of. Anything that you would like to gift the Earth. Allow yourself to send it down this. Mine of energy. That were all holding here together. And taking another deep breath. We offer our gratitude to the spirits of the land. To the spirits of the forests and the ocean of the mountains. To the sacred ancestors. That are present here with us. And we invite them. To come into this circle that we're casting. Knowing that we all come from different lands and are connected. To many different lineages. And I want to acknowledge our queer or trends and our gender expansive to spirit ancestors that are here with us in this moment. And thank them. For their sacred guidance. For their support. And for their love and care. As we move into this. Delicious communion together. And I'm gonna count to 3 one more time and I'd love for us to all take a last deep breath in together. Really, letting ourselves feel the connection that we have with one another here. 1. 2/3 intently. Bringing your awareness back to the room that you're in. Coming back into this space. And opening her eyes whenever you're ready. Thank you everyone. Thanks. Yeah. Feel so much more calm and connected. Now we're going to listen to a poem by Bianca. Are you ready? I'm ready. That's still imagine we're all sitting in the circle. So, um. This problem came. Add a. Um? Maybe the 2nd wave of. Overwhelming feelings over the past 12 months. Um and. Feelings and imagination that humanity was kind of. Over or very much on it on a certain kind of edge, and I. I started thinking very apocalyptically and. Pretty immediately I channeled that into something that fueled me. And this poem came very directly out of that. So it was, I think, just a couple of months ago. I had this sort of like second hit of this. Fantasy world that humanity was really over, and, um, so this is my kind of. Digesting that, but also. Channeling it into something that was really charged and. No, really, it it is somehow it very much inspired me so. It's called Symphony for the dark ages. Symphony for the dark ages. This is my melody for the capped. Rages, Whisper screamed from one night train to the other, passing in the hurry, blur of cosmic coming. Rush of armies souls escaping, burning cities. I still have my own last breath to take despite the plans of Angels, few Nereo or other. River will keep flow though even when the television has nothing left to say. Even when buried without roses, the evangelical who already spent his swansong keeps going on about the ever after, even after it's all gone and the Symphony ascends, giving wings to the afterlife of the soul. The Royal ball, the **** and the ecstasy of it all my hands piano the Eron despaired join the pandemonium of prayer. The purple honey of violins drip from the chandelier. Every feathered beast will be there at least in shadow. When the first snow falls, Appan the moon not. The faulty foot of men and barking at his side. Man's best friend howling the hunters shattered the winter air. A fleet of doves go murder by in Augusta closed to the ground, and the wild geese stitched the Gray Sky with black. Thread. Thank you very much. So what what I really love about already these these two? Yeah, on rings that you did in poetry and in prayer is that it really immediately goes into the body an I feel all three of you. Do these have inspired me to like change my view in in a way that it's addressing aspects that that we are often in the West condition to like, repress, like for example seeing yourself more as a group self and having different aspects that are combating each other we are. Voices of shame are often so much more dominant than than voices of like in our parenting or self care, like in your work Bunny or like what I really love about your your work address. Like really using using the aspect of the spell as a as a collective iti and using also the digital platform to actively like call people like hey, this is a spell. We're doing this together an just like going beyond beyond just the individual an. Material and what I also have with your poetry beyond guys just added that it seeps into my body system. I would say like it would be impossible for me to like recite or repeat what you just said, but it's like goes into this to myself as a sort of medicine and it like just connects me immediately to like the plans around me and the animals and the sensations and the senses an and for me for example like. Like knowing what is a spell, or was a prayer is like it's a journey. You know, like a couple of years ago, like some more stuff came up like around prayer and prayer and and for me I didn't know what was a prayer. You know, like I only had bad connotations with that was like being brought up Catholic like an hearing so much more coming from indigenous wisdom like using the prayer as or even from the East. You know, like Buddhist Buddhist like collectively like meditating and like. It was really a journey to connect to that and also doing more research around the spell or what is it spell like finding that, like this Bell was a legit element of healing in in Eastern medicine, for example, and this is something that I really notice when doing body work, like there's just a mantra coming like this is what this body system this soul in this body needs to be like here right now and it has its power an I I find that all of you were kind of with that. Aspect of magic and I would like to know more in how you arrive to this place and what kind of meaning it has in your personal and public life. An and also like knowing everybody is like brought up in like you know like a rational capitalist or bringing that. That was probably not part of unless you like have this amazing operating. That is something that needed to be reclaimed an. I wonder if you could elaborate on that. Maybe one you wanna wanna start like how you started with your higher self project for example. Yeah, thank you by the way Bianca and Edgar for those that was often beautiful, I needed that. I. Have been performing an being an artist for over a decade in New York. An like a lot of you I'm sure understand the struggles of the ups and downs of the practice and the fears, and you know the insecurities and the constant questioning of yourself through the journey of trying to be a professional artist. And as I'm doing working on my art, I'm I'm also coming to terms with my spiritual path. An about in 2016. I sort of like was going through a really hard period. You know, I just got out of a relationship. My heart was broken. I didn't know what was happening with my career and I was just like in a really dark place. And I'm like in my bed sitting on the edge of my bed. Just feeling horrible like what's the point? And then I just kind of extinct, instinctually closed my eyes. And I had a vision of like a Birds Eye view of myself of me sitting on the edge of the bed, and I could see myself outside of my body. And I could see all of the layers of stress and judgment and self criticism and pain that I was holding an I just saw myself and I felt this like deep compassion. And I sort of looked at myself like a child, like I was a child going through. You know all of that pain and I just like hugged myself. And I held myself when I was like, you're OK, you're enough just how you are. And then I kind of like came out of it and I felt this like huge relief. That's huge relief, and it was probably one of the most healing moments I've ever experienced. Anne. I realized at that time that what I had been searching for in relationship in career, in status and all of the ways that Western western culture. As we need to find validation outside of ourselves, but you're constantly searching are constantly seeking never actually fulfilling that void, and in that moment I saw it actually does truly come within an I'm whole and everybody else is whole and we always have been hold. And. From that practice, I just sort of started writing creating memes on Instagram. We're having dialogue with me in my higher self which higher self is the part of you that knows your whole already an I just did it on a whim. I just started making these memes of two of me like having a talk between myself from one perspective. From the ego perspective, the conditions mind perspective to the perspective of wholeness and love. Ann, I didn't really expect anything of it and so, but then it kind of I got more and more and more of a following and more, and I learned as I was going and I was just writing these little things every single day for years an learning so much about the from the audience and bring a response and so. I've I realized at that time at for me as an artist, what what? What the missing link was was that actually the work isn't really about me. You know? It's about giving back. It's about channeling this creative energy. This divine creative energy that we all have access to an that as it moves through us, it transformed in the way it comes out is different and unique. Based on the form of our experience. And how there really isn't any such thing as good or bad art or good or bad creativity because it's all self expression an nobody is nobody has a say as to what is a valid self expression and what isn't. And so yeah, those words that was kind of like the transformation transformation that of course I still struggle with too. Or you know, it's not like I just realized that and now I'm like happy every single day. But this is the like, the alchemy that I'm working with. The spell that I'm working with is is, you know. How do I shift the perspective and how do I constantly unlearn these things that I've been taught that just are an illusion and fine, you know, the essence of who we all are. And how an in that truth of myself is also the truth of how of every other sentients being. And we are all connected in that essence of who we truly are. Thank you. Edgar. Yeah, it's definitely been a journey and thank you so much for sharing all that money 'cause that really touches me and I really resonate with a lot of what you just said. Yeah, I've also feel like I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness growing up, so I was brought up in a very Christian household and it wasn't until I was studying our abroad in England that I had a moment where my my ancestors woke me up in the middle of the night, and so it's interesting like the bedroom which magic, you know. My ancestors came to me and they really wanted me to know that I, you know, had a different purpose that I was like a medicine person and they they kind of, you know, were really like direct and it was really confusing for me because I grew up in a capitalist. You know, Western Christian household. So I was like I'm in an art program. What do you mean I'm supposed to be like a medicine person like? How do I even like go in that direction? And so a lot of my life has been kind of bringing a lot of my different interests and. Options together and going from a place of feeling really isolated an really alone as a practitioner. As someone who is really excited about magic and witchcraft and indigenous epistemologies and and also art and art practice. But I've gone, you know from that till like realizing that there's a massive web of people out there who are creating work and also tapping into sacred ancestral practices that many of us were taught were not appropriate or right and. And reclaiming I think you know, Melanie, you spoke about that of reclaiming what we think of as spells or prayer, and really creating something different together and and I think that's something that I really appreciated social media for is that it really has brought me from a place of feeling really alone and feeling like my art wasn't no good or valuable to realizing that there's so many of us who are using art for something much more bigger than what we were taught. Art was supposed to be. Thank you what. Role does witchcraft. Playing your work, Bianca. Well. I don't have a immediate answer to that, but you mentioned. This reclaiming of the witch, and. That made me think about. The fact that I came. From a family and a background that was quite eccentric and. But I I associated it very much with witchcraft and with. A pretty negative connotation to it as well. And so I didn't really have attraction to it. Like through my teens in my 20s, I think I even rejected it an. I was actually with you. When we first got together and did some. Some work together to get 2014. We were really exploring this idea of reclaiming the witch and it was a big, really big moment for me to recognize that I had a lot of fear around. Um? Especially the word power. I had a lot of fear and negativity associated with it and. Um? Well, I really enjoyed doing with you in that intentional time of reclaiming the which was to do non prescriptive ritual and. That is something that I think I've always done in my artistic practice, and that I continue to do. So it might be. That I have. I have a kind of. Innate rejection of like systems. I don't like lever. Look at recipes for cooking. For instance, an I think I probably have the same kind of aversion with, let's say, rituals that have a really particular prescription. And as an artist. What feels most? Healing for me is the creation of ritual without prescription or that the prescription is. Is basically developed in in the mode of creating the ritual so. Basically getting navigating through the ritual itself is a creative experience. But the my relationship to the. The terminology witch and witchcraft kind of has still coming and going in different. Waves and different faces. Um, but it feels good. At the moment. I'm appreciate being invited and being drawn back to this. This subject an I feel. Um open too. I felt open to it at the moment. Yeah, somehow I feel that. There's something I relate in a witchy way too. To drag as well, um, it plays a certain. Or maybe I I even. I think I struggle even with the feminine presentation in relation to which. So it's just a personal, it's just a personal thing, but there's I think there's a. There's a lot inside of that. And why I had a hard time relating to a certain sense of empowerment, like through the female identity there was something. Something difficult for me there that I think I'm still trying to like merge female body and a certain sense of power. It's an ongoing. It's an ongoing struggle and conversation. In your leverage on that, where is the struggle? Um, I think. The female body for me is still so weighted down with historical. Trauma and I haven't arrived to the place where the female body can assume a powerful. Position basically. So. Yeah, it's like I'm trapped in the medieval times. What's your take on that bunion at Kirkwood you both like identify also is among binary or maybe even to spirit if I'm correct and that's I know also has been a journey at least I know from you Bunny could you elaborate a little bit on your journey and that an how? And what is your political positioning in that and how is it affected or changed your daily go about. Um, well, I guess you know. For me, like the gender, the issue of gender and like the binary for example, is just another level of how we are deconditioning ourselves from these systems that we've been taught are truthful and what it means to be male or female. And so, as I've been on my spiritual path, I've sort of like seeing an realize that you know how I've always felt inside what, how. I've always felt in my heart isn't just. Female Ann and so with also help from other courageous people who are having these discussions in fees being so authentic. You know, I felt the courage to stop identifying as female for me. I think the. The the thing that I think is sometimes dismissed in in this conversation is that gender can be a really. Fun play and it's not a rejection of gender to be gender lesser to identify as non non binary but that you know this is this is a play that we can enjoy. You one day you could be Super Firm one day, not an. It's just like another like anything else. Another form of expression, or like a language. And you know, I think that it's just been really freeing for me because I think you know also what happened when I was like, I'm nonbinary, and then people are like, but you look so feminine, you know, and so and so we're getting into the like what in order to be like, genderqueer, nonbinary, you have to like look more masculine, or you have to be androgynous. Or and the whole point is that gender is a con. Is a concept and that we as humans are free to identify or play with those concepts in any way we want to. And it's not saying that that anyone who identifies as this or or or female or male or whatever is doing something wrong or isn't smart or isn't woke or whatever. The term is. It's saying that the that humans are free to make those choices as they feel. What what reflects their authentic self? And so yeah, I mean, I've. I think gender is like super fun an it's like another medium of expression, an. I feel much more free having had that realization. Thank you. Yeah, and I really, really relate what you both Bonnie and Bianca were saying. I think for myself and a lot of people. I think there's a deep wounding that happens when we're told who we are or when we're told how we're supposed to show up. And I think it's really liberating to allow people to present or to be who they are, and also to show up in the way they need to show up. I think that that's something that's really sacred, and it's definitely something that I've also really worked with as an artist. And also as. Practicing waiter blue heckes. I really feel like there is something so special about holding space for someone and letting them really show you their intuition and their organicity and that is, I think something that gets taken away when we assign people gender or other identities too. And it's definitely been a journey. So I really agree with Bunny was saying where I like I so so grateful to other folks who have really been. At least in you know, the recent years been pioneers and helping us reconnect with. I think what I was kept away from and not everyone was, but I was kept away from all my queer and trans ancestors who are really present. And the more I've been able to open them space to commune with them, the more I realize that they've always been in my life and been trying to guide and protect me. And that's also something that I think is really important. Is that queer, transgender, expensive 2 spirit people have been sacred healers, medicine people. Intermediaries we have a sacred role within Community that has been. I'm in many ways, a disruptive through colonization and capitalism. Anne, what are ways that we can reclaim that without again going into these structures of toxic power? An appropriating like it came like something that came out of the conversation. We had Bonnie that really like struck me and I never forgot. Is that you really pointed out to me that me, you know, like coming from the Netherlands, being a white, white person, an like having been really taught in my in my. Culture and in my school system from very small that it's OK to take, you know that we have the right to just go and take like ideas or people or animals or countries resources like and not having not having the notion like hey what do I bring to you? You know like and and make it like a system of exchange that is more healthy. I think in ecological reasons. So so after like what would be for you a way that we can. Use new technologies and reclaiming these powers without like going again in this like structures that are all about like taking without bringing anything back or just misappropriating or. What's your view on that? Yeah, this is a really big topic. I feel there's so much to talk about this, but I think one thing that you bring up was really, really shine. Alities Super important in being able to feel connected and when you're connected to another being to a land to another person, it's hard to take, you know, but also working on those parts of you that want to take right or those parts of you that were taught that taking was OK, or that oppressing others is OK as long as it means that you are doing well. I think a lot of people you know, even people in the West who have been oppressed by the same systems, have been really inculcated with a lot of these ideas. So it's something that I think a lot of us have to reprogram. And you know, there are many people in parts of the world who are suffering because of what we're doing in the West. Even you know, even myself as a marginalized person who's indigenous living in the US. I'm still also were pressing people in the South and in other countries just so that we can keep living our lives and so acknowledging that an understanding that we're all a part of this. AB. And also I think a big kind of thing too is to name that like capitalism and colonization have destroyed so many ties to connect to culture across many countries, including your own country, right? That there's been ways that we've all been disrupted and dislocated from our indigenous ancestors or from ancestors who had Earth based customs and ways of exchanging. And so there's also, I think, a deep mourning too, that we're all going through and there's a morning of acknowledging how much we've lawston also. There is also space and I think that's where artists and creatives and visionaries are really important there. Spaces for knew things to emerge, new ways of exchanging, enough connecting that are being created and and I'm really feel like the which is a powerful cauldron as an as an egregore or as a as an energy that we're kind of casting ourselves towards to really create another, another entity that can really support us in just dissolving or kind of starting to dismantle some of these. Calcified structures that have been keeping people in certain positions? Thank you. What is your view on this money? Well, I was just trying to add something to that because it made me think of this and you know, being like part of a lot of different spiritual communities and you know you hear this term like magican manifestation alot an. And I think that people forget like it's not, it's yeah, it's cool to be able to manifest. It's cool to be able to do magic, but what is? What is the intentionality behind your magic? And I think that people think like, oh, I can do magic and that's the last step. And so if you are engaging in ritual, if you're engaging in intentional magic, Ann, you are doing it for the expansion of you. Know your for your spiritual expansion or for love versus just power. Um, that can really be the difference between how? We're going to approach different practices and why you're engaging in certain practices. You know an is it. Is it to make yourself feel more special or important in terms of you know more power? Having more power over other people or being more successful in the sense of needing to be better than other people? Or is it to expand your heart? Because if you're doing this, the the. The Magic and the intention ality in the art and creativity to bring more love to your life and to people around you. You're going to operate and make choices that were compassion is as constant in those choices, and so if you make a mistake, if somebody bring something to your attention that maybe you didn't think about, you're going to be in a place where you can really hear that because you're coming at it, not from a defensive battle place where you are willing to learn because the whole point is. The growth, you know the whole point is like how can we bring more compassion? 11 to the world. And so yeah, I think that you know, asking yourself what you're why you're manifesting what you want to manifest is very important part of the journey. Thank you. An I was also curious like using using digital platforms like Instagram for for Creation. Of course also is placed in a container that is ultimately like capitalistic an an unbiased. An often I feel like just like going off it. An also do this in phases because I feel it just so controls the way I am. I'm thinking and perceiving the world and even though I learn a lot from it. At the same time, I feel it takes almost as much an an for example like like like you know, connecting to your poetry beyond that for me now, maybe I'm gonna do your course because I feel I really like. I'm lobotomize from this part that used to be maybe more like my artistic vision or voice, because so much information coming in an yeah. I wonder how how you how you stay connected to this kind of. Channeling or pure creativity or and how much do we feel like also imprisoned by the system, which is our outlet? Can you elaborate on that, Bianca? Back to does it affect you because you for me are now like my portal? Like yeah I need to do the youngest course too. So I'm like back connected with kids. I kind of have a. I have an SAS sort of love hate relationship to it. Kind of like you said. Sometimes it feels like. I should go far away from it, and I think that's more my own inability to. Just to navigate it, sometimes I don't. I think. Maybe some people are more equipped or more clever with how to curate it, and sometimes I feel kind of. I see I find myself slipping into. Amid the worst is the in automatic any automatic behavior around this kind of stuff? I think that's. I think that's the biggest challenge is the. It's sort of like this. It's also that the the phones I want to say as well the. The power that they have to dictate. Are our responses and so. When that's not there, um, when that's kind of under control, it feels like. Um? There's a lot of potential. There's a lot of potential for. I think for for the for. First, this kind of group group spelling is is what I see the biggest potential that it has. Right now, but. If it gets really delicate, it's a really delicate work too. To sort of stay on top of it that it doesn't. You know, Curie you so I I find that it's a challenge for sure. And, um. I'm curious what Bunny also has to say about that. I think it seems like Bunny you really been thriving in that in this in this format and curious if I can if I can turn turn that like back into a question of how do you navigate that. Around. Being able to sort of like stay in control basically of yourself and and and the form of your. Your. Your ideas that make sense. Yeah, I think it's just like a constant. I mean I, I don't. It's not easy and I think it's difficult no matter what. How much of an audience you have. I think it's still the same amount of difficulty because. Um, you know you have to constantly check yourself as to why you're doing what you're doing. And what is like the motivation behind you posting this? Like, am I doing it to fulfill a pencil lack within myself? Because if you are. Doing it for that reason, no amount of anything is going to be enough, you know, so it's like, oh, from one perspective, we like you're doing great. And then it's like you know from your perspective you like what I thought like you know with thousand less likes on this and the last time you know. And it's just like this constant, you know if your if your ego is caught up in it. It's just this constant leveling up and it's never enough because you're using it as a way to feel better about yourself. And even though I use it. 2. You know, spread messages of love and help people and I still can catch myself. You know, in that mentality and just like a couple months ago I was like sort of for a while I was like off my like spiritual path and I was just kind of like getting. So I was like on my phone constantly and like. Comparing myself and I just kind of had this realization. You know that I was like counting these likes like like treating like being it was so greedy like I was being so greedy about it like these people these like each number was just like a number and I and it's not enough numbers. And how can I get more? And it's like these are human beings, you know. And so I mean, I think that it's not. I think the I'm hoping. That there's going to be a time where there's enough access for people and enough resources for people that they don't always. If they choose not to be on a platform like this that they can not, because for me, for example, like you know, it's an for many people. It gave them access which was not there before, you know, due to like finances or. You know, for any amount of privilege, and so we have to. You know we have to do to use it, but. Yeah, I mean it's not easy. It's harder than it can be. Heartbreaking, you know an I think I think, yeah, so I think it's really just. About constantly, you know, trying to be in the awareness of what where your consciousness is at the time that you're using it. Trying to make sure that you know you're not using it as a way to feel good about yourself because it's not going to work. I mean, maybe it will happen every once in awhile and then and then the next day you'll need another fix. So that's why I try to keep that in mind. Does that answer your question a bit Bianca? Uh. Yeah, I think about. Like maybe the 1st for sure. The emotional relationship to it. Or I think. But he was shedding light on like an important facet of it. For sure. But sorry, just to add like I think another area that I've struggled that we didn't necessarily talk about is. How it affects my identity as an artist? My own sense of my identity. Somehow this. This these pages like this. Rooms are these walls or whatever they are. Um they they they give the illusion of activity in a way for me or I start to identify with what's there as what I'm doing percent opposed to it being. Perhaps due to this particular time, when things have slowed down and I like, I don't have nearly as much going on as I did in previous years, maybe so the balance between. Like showing an artifact of an actual event and then it becoming the event. I think there's there's a sort of a shift that happened because the because the activity is more existing in this digital platform, so there's something something around that that I find is is. Interesting to navigate. Yeah, it's like we have. We all have these virtual identities. Now. You know, these avatars. We've all become avatars. And it's like how you balance you know your attachment to that or not. You know, just like just like any other job or career relationship, I think it's it's sort of like you know you can enjoy it as the you can take joy from it, but you can't be your only source of who you are, because then it will become. The thing that traps you, yeah, I've definitely like dealt with that in terms of like having people like be upset when they find out that I like, I have emotion. I can get angry, you know, like I can, you know, I can express disappointment or sadness. And you know, sometimes people projecting certain desire or you know ideas of you and then being upset when that projection gets you know. And realizing I'm human like I have different experiences and will show up in different ways and. But I definitely would feel feel like social media has really helped me to connect with a lot of people, but it definitely something that I have to have really good boundaries around just because I think it. It also can become a place where people feel like they have access to you or also you know there are a lot of trolls out there and you know there's definitely people out there looking to harm other people or who get upset. Seeing you know queer or gender expansive people in positions of elevation or or or just like being happy and you know. That can be upsetting for some people. That's what I see in all three of your work is something that that when I came of age was really segregated. Like art, activism and spirituality. So there were order spiritual people or the activists. Or you're an artist an what I see now in this generation is that those things are much more coming together and people are not afraid of each other. But see the actually potential and maybe also make common sense of combining these three an. I was wondering what is your your take on that? Because I see also or it is politically informed or you know, tapping into like the contemporary T of what's going on in everyday politics an you're definitely all engaged towards a certain cause an. So my question is how do you see this combination of those three and how would that make sense for the future of people who choose to? Be creators or artists, can you talk about that Edgar? Yeah, so you know I'm we tall or big Daddy Casomai people are from Mexico and something I've been really inspired by my people is that that, you know at that exactly what you said that that distinction between art and spirituality and activism are really non existent and one of the big things that I've been inspired in is witnessing the way that the have stood up to mining companies have been trying to come in to take their land for mining and industrialization. And it's secret land that is used for a tool and they use ritual an R and what we would consider are in music and ritual as ways of protesting as ways of getting these mining companies to leave their land and so that's been super inspiring for me and has really validated that desire that I have to bring together mental health and spirituality in art and activism and also witnessing that that incredible multiplicity is coming through so many people that so many of us are refusing. To stay within the regimen tations that we've been given. How do you see that Bunny? Well, I do. I think you know it's you. In order for things not to be you not to be political, you have to have like a really high level of privilege, because I think that inherently like everything is political. If you or somebody who is oppressed in any kind of way, an also. That's normally how people receive it, they're like, oh, you know this. This artist is, you know, we were not given a blank slate and I think that you know, and I think that's all I've always felt that, you know, I've always. Felt like working as an artist. I would see you know, like people who I felt like, whose art was just kind of taking it at face value. But then you know, in when it comes in in in this package, it's like oh, you know, Indigenous artist Mexican artist. You know an it seem differently because you're seen as as as different or outside of what like the institution has has defined as what an artist should be or look like. And so I just I I for me, I don't. I don't see how it could be separate and not to say that you know you have to specifically talk about some aspects of what's in the news or something. But you know, inherently like where we are. All here dependent on each other. This is like a quick the time right now is like a question of whether or not our species is going to survive. So if if you're not tapped into that on some level in your creative practice, then I don't know. If I don't know if you. Are letting yourself sort of surrender to the gift or to the the purpose that you are here for an an. I think that you know that's how important. We all are. An olive. That's why. All of our voices matter. We all have a unique role to play in the awakening of consciousness on the planet. And so for me, that's all tide in that, you know, creativity, spirituality. Politics is like the dances like the heat, the human experience, and so, um, yeah, that's how I see it. Bianca, you also mentioned like maybe not like direct commentary on like on politics or discourse. But is all like interweave or embedded in like your your writing and your your songs in your theaters theater making like also often tapping on like taboos like in conversations we had. You also mentioned that you know you, you shouldn't be afraid like to burn yourself on the fire, you know go to where it may be hurt and where you also put yourself at a risk by being like. Making public commentary being also vulnerable to like yeah, critique or going to where it hurts. Can you? Please do that. Yeah, I've always. Kind of like. Naturally identified with. Like as an artist too, I gravitated towards what was difficult to speak about, I think. And. Probably most directly in in written word. Um? It sort of comes to me through this discussion and. Even the poem I chose to read that. Even talking about sort of like the dark side of things too. 2. I feel like that's part of my role is to. Talk about. Kind of frightening topics and through. That that and sort of create. Not a means out, but a transformation through. It's a three embracing, so like really kind of embracing, embracing fear and racing the dark and through that through creativity, really. Transforming it and also when you were talking funny. I was thinking about privilege and how you know you have to be really privileged. Order to create nonpolitical art and I think that this particular moment is really fascinating. With how? All of humanity. Is actually really being touched at the same moment bye bye bye what's happening on the planet and? And I'm curious like. I'm curious about the. The art that will come out of the this like even younger generation of this experience an what sort of um? Kind of knew. New connectedness is possible. That wasn't possible before this sort of uniting experience. So also I heard you say the word the word gift and I'm just thinking about what kind of. What kind of gift can it be that? That humanity has an opportunity to have a certain. Shared a certain a certain shared experience right now and how we can use that. How we can use that for for a bigger transformation right now? Thank you also my last question before we go to some questions of the audience that are popping up like we're open for questions from the audience everybody. I know from from you Bonnie and Bianca that you were altered. Deduct like you didn't actually go to like school like art or not had any kind of training in an institution an I know you all three are also doing giving trainings and courses that are. Related to to creating like. Yours about higher self and anger. You have teachings around divination. Anne Anne Bianca. You have the writing course and I wonder if you can say something about like how you find your place without having an education and they're being teaching yourself or adding things that are not included in institutional education as part of your art practice. Like you add corn so so. Barney what's your? What's your new? Think about. I'm I'm going to releasing a free course on line about how to higher self your creative practice an it's basically finding confidence, inspiration, motivation and sustainability in your creative practice. Grew shifting your perspective as to your own value. I think that one of the things that I really learned, and I think we all have an education right we all have. We've all become. We all have our wise in our own way we've all we all have. There's many forms of teaching. Um and. Ann, one of the things that I feel like I've really grown to realize, is that. Is that people are really what people are drawn to is? Isn't expertises authenticity an eye? And I think as you as an artist as a creative person you because you grew up in in this world and you learn that you have to, you know, accomplish what was told is good and valid in order to be valid. You sort of missed out on and you're missing out on really, truly how valuable your creative expression. Is an how important? It is an? It's an I I your I really firmly believe that every artist is is here to heal the world and I don't just mean because their art is going to be seen by people and their arts going to heal people. Although that could also happen. But because you have to do your art in order to heal yourself and that is how we change things is through. From our inner to our outer because our outer world is a reflection of our inner world, and so if you are creative person and you have that itch to be creative, it your creativity. Your creative expression is. Is how humanity is going to evolve and survive and thrive, and that's how important you are an artist. And so the course is really focused on hey. How do I shift that on a daily level? How do I have it shift my perspective on what sustainability means? What it means to be motivated? What means to have a purpose as an artist so that you're constantly. Enjoying your practice. Enjoying who you are and growing in a way that feels very free. Thank you yeah. How is that for you at guard? Could you use, among others, divination? Yeah, I I definitely offer workshops on divination and creative practice, 'cause I use a lot of altered States and divinatory practices within my own work. Definitely someone who enjoys academic like life 'cause I'm. I'm in a Masters program for the second time, so I'm someone that enjoys school, but I also fully understand that it is not accessible and it is not appropriate. And also that also it's very limiting in many ways and I've been apart of so many radical like underground groups that have self organized to bring experiences that are more meaningful in that really allow for. More like dissolution of some of these boundaries that academia doesn't know how to deal with. Sometimes I would say, for example, I've been a part of a group called the Golden Dome that organizes its own artist residencies for witches and Mystics, and I've also been apart of other like radical underground communities that have really found ways to Createspace to help people show up as they need to show up, and also explore. And I see one of the questions in the chat around like indigeneity, and I think that that's something that I never learned in school and. Also, something that my parents kept for me, so it's been a journey for myself of like kind of forwarding those connections. And many times forging them in ways that like might be unconventional. For example, I've reached out to queer VW Youtubers who are online. I've also met people in the art world. I've met people through friends, and so finding ways to make these connections with other people who are of my ancestry has been really important. And something that I've had to do in many ways on my own. But also knowing that there are many people out there who will support you and that you know, even stating that as an intention of like I want to reconnect with my ancestors or with indigenous communities more can start to really bring those networks forward. Or, you know, really, we've those networks on for you, but I'm definitely someone who really, yeah, I really love academia, but I also fully understand that it's problematic and I also. Don't I'm fully against like the hierarchy, 'cause I think it doesn't. It doesn't make any sense. Thank you and then there's some questions of the audience, so one for Bianca, do you consider your poetry as a form of spell? Yes. Um? I do again. It's sort of that non prescriptive spell. I have done direct spelling with poetry for sure for. Certain things in my life here and there, but mostly it's. I tend more to let the poetry sort of guide me and teach me so I don't go into it. I don't usually go into it with a very specific intention. I'm more of an Explorer and I. But one one thing that's really. There's like two different parts of my poetry practice. One is just. Just practicing it like training it like something you do every day, like a pianist doing scales so just working with language constantly and the other side which. Came to me very young is. Being available to. Basically, transcribe something that that. I don't wanna say it comes from outside, but it's this is an unexplainable spark or explosion or flu like flow that. I tried to be available to and. Of course, it's not all the time. That that's happening. So there's this state of just practicing, and I think the practicing. It makes it so that. I'm in a certain shape, I'm available basically I think. So I think being available for that actually. Um? Stop more that something which has more channeling sensation is probably quite related to um. It's it's. Yeah. It's a more witchy aspect, but the spelling. I think it's really interesting because. I think a lot about. I've heard that like the subconscious doesn't. Verse related language which. Maybe after you have something you can comment on your background more related to psychology. But that I don't know if that's totally like a myth, but someone who's really interested in the subconscious and also really interested in language. I think a lot about that and. And I'm curious. I'm really curious about that. Yeah, I would say that you know there's definitely parts of our subconscious that really can benefit from finding non language based ways of communicating. And also there's something to be something really important from. Like almost like bringing something that's an emotion or sensation and bringing it into language could also be really powerful as well. But there are definitely I think you know as a psychotherapist and also as a witch. I feel like working with kind of practices that can help kind of shift your consciousness. 'cause I think a lot of us live within really managerial like I have to get my life together. I have to do things I have to. I have to think and speak and I think supporting people to like access other kind of states of consciousness as you're naming that feel more like channeling. Fewer, more embodied feel more since eat like sensation. Those can be ways to really kind of bringing things forward from the subconscious. And another question, I think we already talked about it, but maybe we can have not a layer to it is like what do you all think about the potential of witchcraft magic beyond the individual Ann is? Is there a potential for collective community building and social transformation including helping us care more for like non human non humans and the ecological crisis? I, I think that there's so much potential. I wish there was more. Sacred Space is more intentional. Sacred spaces and. I. I want to, you know, create more spaces and help facilitate that, but I think you know that hopefully in the future that you know everybody will like, even if it's just with two friends. You know I'm coming together with the with the purpose of. Recording each other helping each other. Loving each other and helping to manifest the best you know out of each other and the joy and the piece that that that you're looking for. And so yeah, I think we we can all do. We can all be better at creating sacred sacred space. What's your take around at corn? Yeah, I feel like I use a lot of my spellwork to collectivize folks. A lot of times an and also at least a lot of my art to process my own feelings. And I think many times I like invite people into to work with a feeling that I've transmuted or transformed and turned into a spell and kind of get you know, the collective behind me to support this still work, and I think a lot of ways that were coming together. We're building webs where colonization capitalized. Capitalism has separated us. We are building webs and I really do believe that we're creating the reality. That's going to catch us whenever this system falls right, and I think we're finding ways to really transform consciousness and also transform culture and what it means to be a collective through the work that we're doing. And I really I've witnessed so much transformation just in terms of like the networks that I'm connected to, seeing how people are reaching out for mutual aid efforts, people are. Organizing to support people at the border. People who are hit getting hit by different natural disasters like I've seen which is come together and raise hundreds of thousands of dollars. And you know, really support communities that are not receiving support from their governments or from other institutions. So there's so much that we can do with magic that we can really kind of. Yeah, transform culture in many ways. What do you think of it, Bianca? How do I think um? Um well. In my personal experience recently with the poetry courses. It's. It's been, um. Important too. To build intimacy between people and um. Also. It's been interesting too. To do that through. Through product voice and with them using anonymity and that's that was an interesting. Experience to see that. But that's actually possible. That was very much an experiment, but that through. Even with. Without having a sense of different identity's, it is possible to create intimacy and trust. So I guess what I'm saying is iPad. A kind of small experience first hand of of some interesting potentials. And it's all about. It really is all about like boundaries and and sacred space. Basically like creating a certain kind of container and. Certainly a job to corral like a group of people or a mass and get them to. Adhere to a certain formality. But they it feels like there's a really is a lot of potential there. And, um, it's like we have to just be. Um? Yeah, highly creative in how we. How we run with this potential right now? Kind of eating my own like kind of contradicting myself from earlier, which I think I often do about like non prescriptive ritual and now sort of thinking about the power of. Certain the certain formality of certain sacred space and getting people to. Commit to certain formality is something I've been navigating a lot in curating and leading these courses with all with strangers, you know so. I've first hand. Yup, and like kind of getting a taste of what happens when you draw together a group of strangers and and basically cultivate trust and intimacy. And it's it's definitely really inspiring, and, um. I would like to. Expand This, expand this circle this this so. Somehow? Yeah, I also think alike refer him back to Bonnie like it's all about the intentionality which creates a format through which we can connect to each other. Two words where we wanna go and witchcraft can help just to like build, trust an unbuilt power direction towards somewhere something. With this intention Aliti and connects us beyond ourselves to our planet and our ideas. What's around us? And I want to name that we're in a Hierophant year and this is definitely a time to rethink the customs and cultures that we've been inheriting and kind of re purpose them and re in transform them. And I think that's the purpose of the Hierophant is to create that secret container as you're saying, Bianca. Thank you and with you with that beautiful comment. We're ending this symposium and I'm also really curious what you all think about it. People at home and to leave your comments maybe on the Instagram of the Witchcraft Symposium. So we also have more dialogue among each other, or like on the pages of Bonnie and Bianca, and add Guerin and see how we also all can come more together around this theme. So please leave your voice if there's something that came up for you. We won't hear Yuan. We're looking forward to see everybody again next Thursday. I think it's next Thursday, or maybe since Thursday offer. I don't remember but website. Yes, see your websites and also thank you everyone. I'm hoping you can see me actually now, but I hope yeah we'll see everyone again and also thank you very much everyone for for joining us. Thank you. Melanie Bernie. At Score and Bianca for being here. I really enjoyed it. Your honesty and openness. Yeah and the check our website and everything for the program. So thank you very much everyone. Thank you thank you thank you. Get family.